Law Firm Marketing

BONUS – Will Marketing & Advertising Cheapen My Law Firm?

legal marketing podcast

What does effective law firm advertising look like?

What do lawyers really think of lawyer advertisements?

What’s the key to making marketing & advertising that gets your law firm noticed?


READ THE BLOG –…en-my-law-firm/

Ep 71 – Measuring Marketing ROI in Your Law Firm

Today we talk about what’s measurable and what isn’t when it comes to legal marketing and then we chat with Consultwebs VP of Business Development Tanner Jones about measuring ROI in your law firm.







Measureable vs Non-Measurable Marketing & Sales Activities

Today’s Hot Take takes a different path than we normally do –  instead of an article we’re headed to YouTube. The video we discuss is from Charles Gaudet of Predictable Profits, called “The Case For Non-Measurable Marketing & Sales Activities.” 

It’s a hard truth in the advertising and marketing world that sometimes the ROI is not 100% clear. Raising awareness for your firm may include advertising, organic posts, marketing, social outreach, podcasts, networking, tweets, staff meetings, surveys, videos, newsletters, strategies, campaigns, seminars, and significant investments of time, money, sweat, and tears.

So what’s the ROI on all that? Shouldn’t you be able to draw a clear line from marketing efforts to revenue? And if you can’t, doesn’t that mean it doesn’t work?

Charles Gaudet explains that solid marketing strategies contain 80% measurable activities, (things that are direct response, strong CTAs, trackable, and scalable) and 20% non-measurable activities, (things that ensure awareness, strengthen relationships, or help to establish your brand over time).

Measuring marketing’s effectiveness is an essential aspect of success, but knowing what to measure, and what can’t be measured, is the secret to staying in the game.

Effective Marketing Strategies for Law Firms

Tanner Jones is Vice President of Business Development at Consultwebs. He’s passionate about law firm marketing and helps his clients understand how effective, unique marketing strategies can expand their presence, expand their business, and ultimately connect them with more clients. Tanner got his Bachelor’s degree in Business Admin and Management from Berea College, has worked as a Student Advisor, Sales Associate, Marketing Director, and now brings his unique set of skills to the LAWsome Podcast.

Learn More about Tanner Jones

“I encourage firms to determine shared benchmarks.”

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Tanner about understanding your firm’s unique value, understanding your competition, gathering market data and then using all this information to your advantage: 

Jake: It’s a recurring theme on the show, knowing what you want and then asking for it. And I think a lot of people are just asking for things and not sure what they’re asking for. It comes to, essentially, the idea of strategy, you mentioned that there. And I think a lot of lawyers are convinced with marketing and advertising for their firm, they know they have to pay for it. But there’s still this disconnect on strategy which can make measuring return on investment shaky. So, you know, people are saying, “I know I need cases.” Some people are saying,”It’s not even important how much money I spend, just go, just go get it.” But how do you help clients focus their ambitions and get realistic about their marketing investments?

Tanner: Everyone’s different. I just got through saying you can’t be all things to all people. You have to identify who you are. So that’s step one. Understanding really, truly what makes you different. It’s funny, everyone’s stressing the same things, or it seems like. You can go to one law firm website in this market and turn around and go to another law firm website in another market and it’s likely some of the top level messaging that you receive is going to be the exactly same. Everyone’s just rip off, rip off and repeat. They’re trying to say the same things to everyone. So that’s step one, truly understanding who you are and what separates you.

The next piece is ultimately competition. Depending on the practice areas, depending on the market area, competition is either going to be fierce to the point of maybe you need to find another practice. Like it’s so saturated that you could spend, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on the web and still not come close to breaking even. Admittedly, there are certain markets starting to become that way, whereas there are some that are the polar opposite, there are definitely soft markets throughout this country based on market and market size and population, but also practice area.

So know the competition. Competition, ultimately, is what drives costs, drives expenses for marketing. If it’s a soft market, you have an opportunity to get in at a reasonable price and actually start to secure clients at a reasonable expectation in terms of cost per case, which we’ll talk about here after a while. But I think competition is definitely something you want to look at and determine…once you’ve determined your UVP, determine does it make sense to even pursue this, based on competition?

I encourage firms to determine shared benchmarks. And what I mean by that is, shared benchmarks between you, the firm, and whoever it is that you’re working with on your marketing, whether that’s an individual, a consultant, a marketing agency, whoever it may be, really have honest conversations about what are we trying to achieve together, because otherwise you’re going to be flying blind. You set yourself and your agency up for failure, if you’re not having those early conversations about what are we truly trying to accomplish. And not just general or even vanity metrics, I’m talking about the ones that actually make an impact on your business. Cost per lead, cost per case. And if an agency or consultant’s not able to have that conversation with you, I’m not suggesting that you walk away from them, but you should definitely work to understand why. Why don’t they have that context?

Get More Information About Measuring Marketing ROI In Your Law Firm

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more information and conversation about online marketing, marketing investment measurement and what questions you should be looking for answers to in your marketing data.  If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—


Ep 68 – Eat Your Greens!

We talk about strategy vs tactics and how marketing can grab the wheel, then we dig in with author & international master-marketer,  Wiemer Snijders, to talk about the book “Eat Your Greens,” and learn how lawyers can grow their brands. 








Marketing Strategy vs Tactics

Today’s Hot Take comes to us from,“Marketing Strategy vs Tactics (The difference & why it matters)” by Ben Breen. It makes a good point about the difference between the big picture and close-up viewpoints of marketing. Ben writes:

“Strategy is being confused with tactics, and it’s all to the detriment of effective marketing.

What is strategy?
Strategy is the combination of things you need to do to hit one or more objectives, limited by time and resources. It’s what you set out to do to achieve some desired outcome with constrained resources over a specific timeframe.

What is a tactic?
A tactic is a technique, tool or method you will adopt do to hit a ‘measurable result’. In other words, a tactic makes no sense if you don’t know why you’re doing it. A tactic is meaningless and worse than useless unless it’s tied to an objective with measurable results.
As Sun Tzu said: tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”

Bringing Clarity to a Jumbled Marketing Picture

Wiemer Snijders is an author, editor, marketing consultant legend, and now Partner of The Commercial Works – a UK & Netherlands-based marketing firm focused on brand growth, where they bring tools to capture and sustain value while balancing volume and profit. After reading his 2018 book Eat Your Greens, a cornucopia of fact-based essays from the best minds in marketing today, it was clear we needed to have him on the show to help translate some of the commercial marketing insights for the legal audience.

Wiemer Snijders

On Marketing Messages and Entry Points

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Wiemer about the Texas Law Hawk, getting ads noticed, connecting with your audience and “entry points”: 

Wiemer: …this is a very simple reminder, I guess, in terms of what marketing needs to be about. You need to be noticed. You need to be easy to buy. And you need to be “thought worthy.” And, you know, it’s sort of a very simple thing. But it really is about that. In terms of being noticed, so [for example] the legal hawk. Was it…?

Jake: The Texas Law Hawk.

Wiemer: Texas Law Hawk, there you go. So, you know, that will be noticed. But, there’s many other ways of just making sure that you are being noticed and that could simply be the fact that you are advertising… But you need to make sure that people pay attention to the ad. An ad that’s not being…you know, if nobody pays attention to your ads, you might as well not advertise, obviously. So, you will have to think about how you will be noticed. How the ad itself will be noticed, but you don’t have to do crazy things. I think also, because I don’t know it, I wonder to what extent firms sort of research and investigate what comes to mind when people think of their industry or their category. So, one of the things that people think about when they think of not necessarily a law firm, but even a little bit more specific. Can you guys give me a specific area?

Jake: Yeah, personal injury.

Wiemer: So, what do people think of when they think of personal injury and any legal matters related to that? You know, one of the things that people think of and to what extent are you putting those things into your messages, it’s the idea of category entry points. That’s how Byron Sharp and Jenni Romaniuk call them. But just what do people think of when you think of what you can offer them? And maybe not so much because I think a lot of service advertising is very much about,”This is who we are. We’ve been here for 100 years. And look, we’re really good at this stuff.” And it’s a very inside-out way of reasoning or just telling people what the firm can do for you. But I do wonder whether there might be some value in just addressing a little bit more of the things that people know…what their clients actually say or think when they think of that category. That will make it more relevant.

Get More Information About Brand Development For Law Firms

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more information and conversation about advertising, marketing and strategy for law firms and more.  If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—


Ep 64 – SEO For Law Firms

We talk about Search Engine Optimization and how lawyers can use it for their firms, then we discuss digital marketing with THE Neil Patel.







 SEO Basics for Legal Digital Marketing

Today’s Hot Take comes from our ouw Consultwebs blog- SEO Basics for Legal Digital Marketing by Rachel Harmon. SEO is the front end of the conversion funnel. You want to guide people to your site by ranking well for relevant terms, but these days content and links don’t guarantee success. It is a long walk not a short sprint, and you need to go after some easy wins to build the momentum you need – this article gives an long but thorough list – YAY – of tactics you can use to start picking up those easy wins.

The Man Who Is Everywhere On The Internet.

Neil Patel is a NYT best selling author, has co-founded such successful digital marketing companies as Crazy Egg, Kissmetrics, has worked to grow notable companies like Amazon, NBC, Viacom, was named as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs by President Obama and the United Nations, is currently CEO of the Neil Patel marketing agency, helping businesses get more traffic and found on the web – and as if that wasn’t enough, Neil adds one more link to the chain with an appearance on the LAWsome podcast.

“Keep in mind, your customer isn’t a lawyer.”

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Neil about content marketing and writing for conversions as well as brand safety in light of recent revelations regarding privacy protection (or the lack of) on social media platforms:

Jake: Giving away expertise. It seems like that’s a theme in your work and it’s a barrier for lawyers in marketing. If people want the goods, they got to pay for it. So, what’s your philosophy here? And how can it apply to marketing in the legal profession?

Neil: Yeah, so in the legal profession, and it’s funny, I’ve worked with so many law firms and lawyers over the years, even the big sites, like the FindLaws of the world that are driving traffic, or LegalZoom, although LegalZoom is more so competing, but FindLaw is driving traffic to other lawyers. And the big thing that we found is lawyers want to write too technical content. Like if you want to do well in the law space, whether it’s business law, or DUI-related, or personal injury, whatever it may be, write simple content that everyone else can understand. Keep in mind, your customer isn’t a lawyer. So, if you’re writing content that’s above their head and too technical, and they’re not going to understand it, you’re not going to generate a lead.

Paul: Totally, that’s it. And, so we talk a lot too to lawyers about different platforms being more social, being more kind of like you said, trying to get down and not talking over people’s heads. But something that comes up a lot that we see is with regards to Facebook, so there’s, you know, these privacy violations, and data breaches, and then there’s brand safety concerns, like on YouTube. If you’re putting it out there, how do you personally deal with protecting your digital assets? And what advice do you give to your clients?

Neil: Yeah. So, you’re talking about you put your brand out there, you have your own assets, you know, people are going to end up taking…they’re going to abuse them, use them. And it’s funny, a lot of lawyers want to sue over it. I look at is it’s okay, they take your content, they link back to you, it’s driving your traffic. If they take your assets, they mention you, they don’t have your permission, but they’re linking to you, and they’re mentioning you, it’s extra free press. Removing those things or letting people have them doesn’t really do much of a difference. If they use them, you know, and instead of telling them to remove them, or trying to charge them a fee for it, try to get them to mention you. It’s so much easier because you’re getting extra brand awareness and traffic versus getting people to take it down or trying to charge them a fee. And you know, when you try charging them a fee or going after them, most of the times you’re not going to get much if anything anyways.

Get More Information About SEO for Law Firms And Legal Marketing

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more information and conversation about legal marketing, seo and local seo for lawyers and more.  If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—



Ep 63 – Listening, Leadership, and Legal Marketing

We talk about law firm culture and then interview CMO, published author, and legal marketing superstar Deborah Farone, to find out how successful law firm leaders are creating and developing firm cultures to encourage business development.

law firm management








That’s The Way It’s Done – Why ‘Preserving Culture’ Can be Stifling Innovation in Law Firms

Today’s Hot Take comes to us from Above the Law – The ‘Culture Card’ In Law Firms by James Goodnow. It has a great example from Zappos about dramatically changing culture, but also makes the point for building a strong, dependable system that can be relied up by new hires. However, far too often culture is invoked as a barrier or reason to NOT make a change, even though the outcome could be positive. James writes:

“Invoking a law firm’s culture to shut down experimentation and new ideas doesn’t just preserve the existing culture, whatever that may be. It inculcates a deeper culture into the firm, one of fear, stasis, and decay. You can’t have a firm culture if your firm doesn’t survive. Everything about the world of legal business is up for grabs in the coming years. Resistance to change is no longer just stodgy — it’s swiftly becoming an existential threat.

Whether culture is a good or bad thing depends on where you find it. In museums and art galleries, culture means intelligence, refinement, and beauty. In a lab, culture means a plate of mold. Culture should be something that drives a law firm to grow, not something that grows over a law firm’s corpse.”

Great article, check it out here:

Positioning Yourself for Success

As the chief marketing officer at two of the world’s most successful law firms, Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP and Debevoise & Plimpton LLP, and as a national marketing professional at a global management consultancy, Deborah Farone has honed the skills of professional services marketing and communications. In addition to her highly regarded work in the communications counseling and crisis management spheres, she has established and led marketing efforts for the consulting, advertising and public relations professions. Ms. Farone was nominated by her peers as the first recipient of the Legal Marketing Association’s Legacy Award in recognition of her contribution to the profession. We are  excited to have published author and legal marketing superstar Deborah Farone on the LAWsome podcast today.


“Leadership is very key, both in creating a good culture and a good environment in a firm, but also in the marketing of the firm.”

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Deborah about the role leadership plays in firm culture and marketing, and the difference between management and leadership:

Jake: Talking about brand and law firm culture, a lot of people want to get the culture right. They’re not sure if that’s their brand or what the strategy is. So do you think what happens internally at a law firm, personalities, leadership, does that get reflected externally and defines the brand? Or is a brand what clients say about the firm? What’s your take on culture and brand right off?

Deborah: I think it’s what everyone says about the culture. I think the culture really is the brand. And regardless of how good you are at creating a wonderful website, or brochures, or any of your materials, or your social media, it’s really what people say, and what’s out there in the ether that’s going to make the difference. So it’s a combination of how you treat your clients and what your clients think of you, how you treat your lawyers, and in particular, how you treat your staff. All these people out there talking, they’re going to create a buzz about your firm that’s much more powerful than anything someone sees online.

Jake: Wow. Well, and I think that we get kind of sidetracked about client experience. You’ve got the clients and “The clients are always right,” and it feels like in some way we serve the clients more than our staff. And I think that  management or somebody who’s keen on that can stick up for their staff. And that’s actually part of the marketing. That’s a really great aspect that I don’t think a lot of people get….that’s a great point.

So talking about relating to the staff and making sure they do what they’re supposed to be doing. Coming up with plans and strategies, it seems like at a lot of legal seminars, there’s a lot of lawyers and law firm owners absorbing a lot of the information and then once they get back into their law firms, it’s back to their hair on fire. I’m just wondering, in regards to that branding and making sure your staff feels taken care of, what part of marketing strategy do you feel is getting missed? Because a lot of law firms are going to these marketing seminars, but not a lot of them are doing anything about the information that they get. You know,  you’ve written books about this stuff. You keep writing books about this, so how do you think law firms can make like realistic marketing plans and strategies, and then execute them with their staff?

Deborah: Well, I think the leadership is so important in these firms, right? Because not only are the leaders the ones telling folks what they expect of their role models and so if you see leaders in the firm treating their clients well, treating their staff well, treating their associates well, and their partners well, that’s going to send a stronger message than any kind of written mission statement that you have. You know, good leaders are not easy to find,  just because someone has risen to a senior position in a law firm, it might mean that they’re a good manager, but it might also mean that they’re not a good leader. And those two skills are very, very different. And I think you need good leadership to have a good culture. But I also think, tying into your other question, because I think there were two questions in there in a way.

Jake: Sorry.

Deborah: No, no, that’s a good question. It’s a good way of asking it. I think leadership is very important in marketing, because you need to have a plan, you need to have hopefully a strategic plan for a law firm at this point. But if not, you need to have practice and department plans. But in order to get those done, a firm needs a strong leader who’s going to be committed to that plan, help sell that plan internally, and make sure that the partners who follow that plan are compensated based on those behaviors that the plan really honors and wants to develop. So I think leadership is very key, both in creating a good culture and a good environment in a firm, but also in the marketing of the firm.

Get More Information About Listening, Leadership and Legal Marketing

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more information and conversation about legal culture, leadership and law firm marketing. If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—



Ep 60 – Content Marketing For Law Firms

We talk about legal content marketing, the entrepreneurial spirit, and then we visit master marketer and IP law goddess, Autumn Witt Boyd, to discuss how content marketing has transformed her practice.

content marketing for law firms

AI Lawyers & Giving Away The Goods

There are two articles we run down in today’s Hot Take. First up is “10 Lawyers-Turned-Entrepreneurs Creating a Revolution in Law” by Jonathan Marciano

Lawyers are leaving the safe and well-paying world of law to build their own fast-growing, tech-first companies. The driver: the need to fix problems and deep inefficiencies encountered in their first career of law. Our favorite out of the group is Chrissie Lightfoot, CEO and founder, Robot Lawyer LISA. She created Robot Lawyer LISA (Legal Intelligence Support Assistant), the “world’s first impartial AI lawyer.” While this is a great illustration of the entrepreneurial approach many lawyers are starting to embrace technology with, it also demonstrates the types of intellectual property and data security they are having to protect, while at the same time making it accessible and marketable.

Article number two is “Giving Away Legal Forms Is Good Business” by Joe Patrice

Firms are starting to play with the idea of offering free legal forms to build reputation and demonstrate expertise. Also, putting legal documents online allows law firms to maximize potential deal flow at minimal cost. “It’s a scalable marketing move,” explains one attorney responsible for one of the popular sites. “If you have a question [about the documents] you’re probably going to contact us.” This is at the heart of most law firm content marketing strategies – basically, the consumer will DIY it until they are inevitably in over their head, at which point they will contact the firm that provided them the initial free docs.

The Content Marketing Lawyer

Autumn Witt Boyd is an experienced intellectual property lawyer practicing out of Tennessee, helping entrepreneurs grow successful businesses by providing legal strategies that tap the hidden goldmines of IP in their companies. Autumn got her JD from Vanderbilt, she now runs her own practice, she’s on Season three of her own podcast, and she’s an amazing force to be reckoned with, when it comes to legal marketing. After successfully aligning our schedules we are honored to have her on the show. – LegalRoadMap podcast

The Difference Between Business and Busy-ness

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Autumn about finding your audience, learning about what works and what doesn’t and finding those profitable clients:

Jake: You know, I think that we’re kind of hitting a stride with a lot of…I just have survey out on Twitter about, “Who asks their clients about law firm owners? Who do you ask for feedback about the experience of their firm?” And it’s crazy. Not a lot of people want to hear from their clients. And, I remember working in a law firm, and being amongst lawyers, and they’re like, “These clients are making my life difficult.” And I was like, “Well, it’s just, I wonder where you buy your pants from, and how you have pants that cover your legs.” Because there’s this give and take. How did you get in there and discover who your most valuable client was? I mean, was it this deep process, or how did you do this? I mean, you’re a success.

Autumn: Oh gosh. It’s been a lot of trial and error.

Jake: Important to know.

Autumn: I’m going to tell you one thing that I’ve done that I think has served me really well, is that I have done a lot of self education outside of the legal world. So, I am in a lot of Facebook groups, and I’ve gone through some online courses, and I’ve read a lot of books that are targeted at people who are not lawyers, because I think lawyers sometimes get a little stuck in, “Well, this is the way we’ve always done it, so this is the way we’re always going to do it, and, you know, we’re hemmed in by all these ethics rules.”

But I like to be more creative, and I like to see what other people are doing. So, I’ve learned a lot from how a photographer markets their business, or how a graphic designer, or you know, somebody in a totally different, still client-centric service based business. What are they doing to reach people? Because they’re not just sitting in an office like a lot of the lawyers do, or just going to lunch. They’re doing really innovative interesting things, and so I think I’ve learned a lot from that, from watching other people in other industries.

Paul: It’s just so cool, and then the fact that you’re honest about, like I went and shook hands, and it was amazing and it didn’t work.

Jake: You got to pay attention to your activities, and I think a lot of people feel busy-ness is business. And as long as I’m just active, you know, I got…

Autumn: You need facts. I mean, last year, so I was in like a networking group that’s kinda like BNI, but it wasn’t BNI. But it’s the same kinda model. We met on a regular basis, we were supposed to be trading leads, and I literally got one client from it, which was not a very profitable client. So, I was like, “I’ve spent all this time and energy that I could have been spending on other things.” And, the result was not great. But if I had been tracking that, you know, it did like you said, I was very busy. I was going to a lot of lunches, a lot of coffees.

Get More Information About Content Marketing For Law Firms

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more insights and conversation about content marketing strategies and methods of marketing your law firm by providing free resources. If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—

Ep 59 – Inbound Marketing For Law Firms

We talk Inbound Marketing for lawyers with an article from Consultwebs and then we chat about audience and community engagement as well as content marketing strategies for law firms with Tara Hunt from Truly Inc. Read More

Ep 58 – Lawyers, Lattes & Alternative Law Firms

Today we discuss alternative workplaces and law firms of the future, as well as new legal consumer behaviors, and  then a discussion with Lawyers & Lattes CEO and tax lawyer Dale Barrett, about his new law firm/coffee shop in Toronto.

alternative legal firms








Where Does The Law Firm of the Future Exist?

There’s a whole roundup of articles under the microscope in today’s Hot Take. First up is from the Atlantic, titled, “Do Lawyers Need Offices Anymore?” If it goes too far one way, meaning the entirety of the practice exists in virtual space only, then culture takes a hit when you are remote. So the idea of the robo lawyer, or kiosk law is NOT in touch with the client services side of a law firm… 

Next up we have three articles from repeat guest and friend of the podcast Nika Kabiri:

Firms need to have a better understanding of the need for client control and price anxiety about hourly rates and timeframes. Lawyers that focus on understanding and enhancing the client experience will win…

People need lawyers, they are inevitable, but you have to be visible in the community…

If your competitors are telling potential clients what they’re about, and you’re not, then you’re at a disadvantage. You can’t plead the 5th when it comes to lawyer marketing…

“To Be Able to Get Some Legal Services Done While Having Your Daily Cappuccino, Why On Earth Not?”

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Dale about the idea behind the move to posting a menu of fixed rate pricing for legal services, and if it helps or hurts intake when you have a list of prices up front:

Paul: It’s interesting you talk about taking away the stress and breaking down these kind of traditional formalities and stuff. And the one thing that stood out to us was the fixed fee legal services. You know, I think a lot of people are very much like, “Eh, I don’t wanna talk to a lawyer because I don’t know how much it’s gonna cost.”

Dale: Right, right.

Paul: So, being straight up with them about that is, I think a good way to break that down. But I’m curious, like how do you figure out the rates and, you know, is there any kind of sticker shock?

Dale: Yeah. Good question. Good question. There’s no … I haven’t seen any sticker shock. Our fees are actually fairly [reasonable] in comparison to most firms out there. Say for $349, you come in and you get your will done. And, you know, the will, if you need it, it includes up to an hour of lawyer’s time.

So, the way we determine the fee structure is by how much time would likely go into one of these fixed fee services. You know, if it takes a little bit too long, so it takes a little bit too long. But most of the time, 95%+, things can be done in the exact sort of amount of time that we’ve allocated to those services. And with that kind of transparency clients are very happy with that. No one likes to get in a taxi ride and not see the meter and just know that they’re going to be billed at their destination. People want some predictability and some transparency. So, most of what we do is on that basis. And, of course, there’s certain things that can’t be done for a fixed rate. How much does it cost to sue someone, you know? How much does it cost for a long challenging divorce process? So, these types of things unfortunately have to be done on an hourly basis. But the vast majority of what we do is fixed rate and predictable and super simple.

Jake: That’s cool that there is no sticker shock because it’s weird to see something that costs $600-something on a menu. I wonder if then, that makes somebody say, “Well, I’ll just get a cup of coffee.” And you probably push more coffee because there’s a $600 thing on the menu. There’s some marketing there.

Get More Information About Alternative Legal Services, Legal Consumer Behavior and Fixed Rate Prices For Law Firms

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more insights and conversation about alternative legal services, legal consumer behavior and marketing your law firm with fixed rate prices. If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—


Ep 57 – Legal Marketing In Splitsville

Alternative legal services, DIY Legal in the palm of your hand, and then a chat with Erin Levine of on listening to your clients, creating useful content and resources plus what it takes to successfully market a family law firm in Splitsville.

legal marketing for family law firms


Is The Future Law Firm Going To Be Like Uber? Legal Services On Demand

There are two articles in today’s Hot Take, and we’re looking at the future of legal consumers and legal product offerings in both. What’s the future look like when companies like LegalZoom and RocketLawyer are already gaining popularity? In the first article,  “There’s No Need To Hire A Lawyer When These Sites Let You Do It Yourself ” by Dawn Kawamoto we look directly at and compare the service offerings of the above mentioned online legal service providers, as well as several others. It’s good to know just what you can get these days, as well as what the expectations are and the outcomes – even though this one seems to take a bit less-than-favorable view of these things, stating,”…folks would be better off hiring an attorney if their needs stray beyond the simplest will…fast and cheap apparently doesn’t always work.” Fortunately our guest Erin Levine has a solution to this! You can read that one here:

Article number two is “The Future Of Legal Services: Putting A Law Firm In The Palm Of Your Hand” by Jeff Bell – important to note that Jeff is the CEO of LegalShield, which is a subscription law service. This one presents the idea of more app-based or project-based services, and in general has a much more favorable approach as well as some guidelines. Jeff also states,”First, let’s state the obvious: Lawyers are not known for customer service.” This can be a problem when customer service and access are what will separate you from the field in his opinion, and the whole idea of a lot of his approach is much more “customer-first” but he can back it up, so worth checking out here:

Bay Area Family Lawyer and Web Developer Extraordinaire

Erin Levine has been working for 14 years advising clients, litigating, negotiating and mediating contested and cooperative divorces, and running the respected boutique family law firm Levin Family Law in the Bay Area. In 2018, Erin snagged the grand prize at the Duke Law & Tech Accelerator Program. She is also the founder and CEO of Hello Divorce. a service that empowers clients to manage their separations online with easy to follow, step-by-step guidance and affordable access to top-notch lawyers. We are honored to have this opportunity to sit with Erin to chat about love and law on the LAWsome podcast.

Erin Levine

From Idea To Reality

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Erin about what was behind the initial idea for HelloDivorce and some of the early changes she made that based on user feedback:

Jake:  … So, in that quest to be the tour guide and lay things out in an easy to understand way, you have membership options, you have legal coaching as an option at Hello Divorce, there’s a pay-as-you go kind of plan. So, the drive to adopt those options, unpack that a little bit more in regards to Hello Divorce and how you have then transitioned that market research into what you’re offering there.

Erin: Initially, Hello Divorce was part of my law firm. So, I didn’t have to really worry about the ethics rules in regards to like unauthorized practice of law and what is legal advice versus what isn’t. So, I started that way. As of January 1, 2019, I now have two separate companies. But at the time, I really wanted to focus on getting a great product out there and great options out there that didn’t necessarily, you know, fall into one category or the other. I just wanted to see if there was a consumer demand. And so, initially, my biggest mistake was I offered way too many options. Users told me that they were excited about the options but super confused, they had no idea what to choose. They had enough pain points and new issues in their own personal lives to deal with. They kind of wanted me to direct them as to what it is that they needed as opposed to just, “Here are the options, pick what you need.” Because people just didn’t know what they needed.

What they do know is whether or not they’re willing to do something more do-it-yourself, whether or not they prefer to have somebody just pick it up and do it for them, and whether or not they need legal advice or strategy. So, they know that pretty quickly on. And so, we redesigned about six months after launch and shifted our focus to these membership options, wherein we also offer a la Carte services but it’s not like our main focus. Generally, what happens is if somebody purchases like a legal document [for] assisted divorce, at some point, they might need some legal help. And at that point, the legal document assistant will be like, “Here’s the link to purchase two to three hours of one of our lawyer’s time and you can use it however you want. You can email, you can Zoom video chat, you can have her review your documents and revise them. But it sounds like at this point in your divorce, it might make sense for you to have a couple hours of a la Carte services.”

Get More Information About Legal Marketing, DIY Legal Services and Online Product Development

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more insights and conversation about legal marketing, DIY legal services and online product development. If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—


Ep 55 – Marketing In and Out of the Courtroom

Today we talk about the power of visual in marketing with an article from Hubspot, and then we sit down with Aaron Birk and Irma Hawkins from DK Global to discuss the impact illustration and visual marketing have in trial law, and how lawyers can use social media more authentically.

law firm marketing in court








Visual Marketing for Law Firms – Some Statistics

Today’s Hot Take is an article from HubSpot called “45 Visual Content Marketing Statistics You Should Know in 2018,”  by Jesse Mawhinney. It is an enumerated list – Paul’s favorite! – that is broken out in to different categories, such as social media and video. While all 45 points are not exclusively directed towards law firm marketing, many translate well, and we have a few favorites we highlighted:

“When people hear information, they’re likely to remember only 10% of that information three days later. However, if a relevant image is paired with that same information, people retained 65% of the information three days later.

People following directions with text and illustrations do 323% better than people following directions without illustrations.

Gaming, education, and healthcare are the top three industries expected to invest the most in VR technology for business growth.”

It’s a great article and we recommend checking it out – and it really delivers on what may or may not be an obvious point – people relate to and understand things better if there is a visual attached.  Read all 45 points for yourself here

A One-Two Legal Marketing Punch

DK Global is a full-service interactive media provider that helps legal teams express themselves in a clear, compelling, and accurate way. Since 1998, DK Global has provided animations, illustrations and other compelling marketing solutions to civil, criminal, plaintiff, and defense attorneys, along with several governmental entities, in thousands of trials.

With us today is DK Global’s Aaron Birk, Social Media Strategist and Irma Hawkins Marketing Coordinator – Aaron has worked as a digital content provider for private corporate agencies and as an investigative travel journalist and columnist for print and web publications.

Irma Hawkins has an extensive history in the anime and video game industry – and together they are bringing their marketing acumen to the lawsome podcast.

“Bringing a visual either induces a quick settlement or impacts the verdict at the end of a trial.”

In this excerpt from the podcast Jake and Paul talk with Aaron and Irma about how much of a difference visual in the courtroom can make, why it’s important to do them properly and what’s involved  in “courtroom marketing”:

Irma: So, I don’t know if you know, but I get to interview a lot of attorneys as part of my job responsibilities. It’s an awesome one. I get to go and meet a lot of the attorneys whenever they settle a case or they get a verdict, favorably. A lot of the things that I hear is that it is one of the most stressful situations for them is when they’re in trial, and the last thing they need to worry about is issues with one of their contractors. So, what our aim is, is to make this process as easy as possible for the attorneys in such difficult moments…and to make it easier for them to help their client, as opposed to wasting time with [contractors]. And so, when we work with the attorneys, we work close with their experts. We request operative reports from the beginning, the police reports, and any other materials that they may have in order for us to create custom content.

Aaron: I think a big one here, guys, is that, you know, you have to be dedicated to the accuracy of bringing a visual that you’re going to bring into court [because of]…court admissibility reasons. But the big thing is that the reason that you want to do that form of…you’d call it trial marketing, I suppose, is that living in a more visual world and understanding the spatial reality of something that occurred, an accident or a collision, you know, something like that, is an important thing to show people, rather than just talking about an event. And so, showing someone an accurate representation of what happened can vastly impact the outcome of a trial, and I think that more and more attorneys are learning that bringing a visual either induces a quick settlement or impacts the verdict at the end of a trial. We’re seeing that all the time.

Jacob: That’s amazing to hear you say and looking through at some of the work that you had posted as samples on your site, it’s incredibly thorough. And it strikes me that…we’ve had lawyers on the show and people who are really into self-promotion and stuff like that, and one thing they’ve told us is that everything when you walk into a courtroom is marketing: your suit, how you present yourself, all that stuff. And so… I mean, this is a real difference maker. This isn’t just, like, “Hey, we slapped some stuff up on some slides.” You’re talking about a professional presentation that’s going to win or lose a case, in some cases.

Aaron: Well, we’ll pull in certified experts that work on this stuff. If you’re going to bring a visual into a courtroom, it has to be as accurate as possible. Obviously,  opposing counsel is going to say,”That’s not how it happened,” so it needs to be as perfect as possible. One of the interesting things about that is that, if it is admitted, that alone is its own sort of marketing, that this has been admitted into court as a demonstrative exhibit. Right? And people have faith in that, and so what you’re showing them a surgical animation or a medical illustration or, you know, labeled slides and things like that, it becomes all that much more powerful for conveying your argument.

Jacob: And it’s one of those things, too. Like we tell a lot of our clients, when it comes to video, that … when it’s done right, it’s seamless. When it’s done wrong, it’s terrible, and everybody notices.

Get More Information About Marketing In and Out of the Courtroom

Be sure to listen to the entire podcast episode for more insights and thoughts about visual strategies for the courtroom and how to take advantage of marketing  opportunities that may present themselves in places you don’t expect. If you want more LAWsome subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform, and for the latest in legal marketing insights and information be sure to subscribe to the Consultwebs Newsletter here –>SUBSCRIBE<—